Turn-in point references

[John Clay]

While bumming about not being able to go to VIR next week, I was looking over the notes on the "photo tour" on virclub.com.

Question, when they say "Turn-in is just after a point directly across from the beginning of the inside curbing", what is the refernece point for the car.

As in, do I turn in when the front of the car is directly across from the beginning of the inside curbing? When my head is directly across from the beginning of the inside curbing?

Is there a standard?

Is there something wrong with me for wondering?

[APKhaos]

John,
Despite the notes, most fast drivers use external fixed reference points. Not a good idea to be looking down at the curbing during late stages of braking and turn-in. VIR has some great external references, and soem of their 'curb mark' reference points [which is where the cones are set] are a little suspect. Same holds for all tracks.

[John Clay]

Tony,

I'm not sure what you mean by "external references". Is that something you feel, like a dip? Or a reference that is further away so you don't have to be looking down, or that is more in the line of sight where you should be looking if you are "looking ahead"?

thanks.

[cmartin]

I aim for the light pole going into 3, good external reference. My eyes are bad though, so I have to find a big object to aim for, less I will be slow and off line. Oops, I guess it doesnt matter anyway.

[racer]

Tony,

I'm not sure what you mean by "external references". Is that something you feel, like a dip? Or a reference that is further away so you don't have to be looking down, or that is more in the line of sight where you should be looking if you are "looking ahead"?

thanks.

Can be a "dip" or can be a tree, building, change in surfaces etc. As Tony mentioned it can be difficult to pick up a small painted dot or triangle near some curbing when traveling quickly and especially when in a "train".

[BobNovas]

Hopefully you'll pick large immovable objects. Using a corner worker as a reference is hazardous. Like the power lines at T10 at Summit, something you can see with your head up is good.

[CrewChief]

John, if I may presume, Tony's reference to external is intended to mean objects that are 'far away' vs objects (points) that are right next to and very near the car.

The cones sometimes used are usually exactly at the point the cone-setter intends you to turn the front wheels. So that begins to answer you question directly. Yes, generally such a reference is intended to be used relative to the front wheels. But such close visual references can cause you to be looking to close to the car.

Far away references aid in keeping the vision up and out where it needs to be. The 'points' are located in two ways using far away references, (1) peripheral vision and (2) relative spacial relationships.

1 is probably self evident. 2 just means that "... when the red barn is directly over the inside curbing turn and go towards the barn - then as you near the apex shift your focus farther left toward the light pole which takes you toward the track out ... " (turn 3 at VIR). Because we all usually 'see' slightly differently, or at least we describe what we see differently, each driver needs to tweak the visual points slightly so that he arrives at the correct points. Years ago I was told that the tub at 5 over the apex of 4 was a good turn-in point. It has never appeared exactly correct to me then or now. But I use the description even so cause it's a darn good start and it's easy to see.

Hope this helps.

[Chopper Dropper]

The external turn in/apex/track out points plus braking points should be as immobile as possible, that being said, always do a couple of recon laps when returning to a track to make sure no one has cut down your tree marker, pulled down a barn or put another up, extended concrete patches etc etc,. Curbing can be a good reference, but not if you have to look down beside the car in the braking zone or when you are hoping to turn in. Concrete patches are often very good, you just have to judge where your wheels are when you use it.Remember you can not see the corners of your vehicle in every day driving, you make allowances for your speed and hopefully where immovable or delicate objects are. Of course if you parallel by braile you got a problem. My reccommendation to students is not to spend too much time worrying about the track and notes prior to going there, the instructor should pretty much help you find your own marks that work for you and they will end up being a combination of everything.
Dirk
Dirk

[APKhaos]

I see that everyone has amplified that point nicely.

You look for external features that are far enough away to fall into your visual field when looking out into the corner, yet close enough to provide good angular reference. John described it well for the turn 3 VIR example. You'll find similar reference point for most turns IF you look for them.

How may of us look for the tub track left coming out of T10 at SP? Its a great apex to track-out reference. Signs and billboards work. Tirewalls work. Trees work. Buildings work. Bleachers work. Good looking women sitting in the bleachers probably don't work for this purpose, but this is not the only purpose, right?

[Don Wohlfarth]

As in, do I turn in when the front of the car is directly across from the beginning of the inside curbing? When my head is directly across from the beginning of the inside curbing?

Is there a standard?
Easy one first. ;) Most, but not all tracks, mark turn in, apex, track out as the largest radius a car can travel around a turn. In theory this is the fastest route around the turn. This gives the driver a repeatable mark to shoot for ever lap. It will be up to the driver to decide if those marks are the fastest for that driver considering driver skill and car set up. Until you know where this marks are it is difficult for a new(er) driver to know if he is early or late on turn in because he cannot repeat the same point on turn in.
As a drivers skill level increases and he know where the turn in. apex, and track out marks are located he wants to look thru the turn. This is where the external (farther away) marks such as a tree, barn, liight post, are located. The driver does not want to look down at the mark on the track and wait until his front wheel is on the mark to begin turn in as he will be too late. Part of a drivers advancing skill is to pick up a external mark that will allow him to keep his eyes up and look where he is pointing the car, Hint: the apex. :) As he approaches the apex with his eyes up he will continue to look thru the turn to track out.
Looking thru the turn sounds difficult but you're already doing it. When you pull into your driveway you seldom think turn in, apex, track out, you look where you are steering the car. This is basically the same thing except you are trying to accurately position the car.