TPC Turbos? aka The Walter Mitty Chronicles

[CanAm]

I'm still looking for a 996 GT3, but meanwhile I ran across a 997S with a TPC turbo kit, TPC sway bars, low miles, and price not much more than a 996 GT3. Any thoughts on performance of the TPC turbo and how it affects durability of the car? Will the engine need a rebuild sooner? Will the brakes need an upgrade for track use? Anything else to be concerned about?

[HoodPin]

Mike Levitas and TPC, in Glen Burnie MD, are really good people. In fact, Mike occasionally instructs at our DE's. Might be worth a visit to talk to him about his "products" directly.

[Dandelion]

If you're talking aftermarket turbo kit, you should understand what you are getting into. This will no longer be a car you can take to just anyone for repairs, and the extra power will definitely show where parts that were adequate for stock are no longer adequate. TPC seems to be a good product, but with the changes that are made, this is inescapable.

I personally would invest in a full set of safety gear for any car, before investing in power mods.

ed

[CanAm]

If you're talking aftermarket turbo kit, you should understand what you are getting into. This will no longer be a car you can take to just anyone for repairs, and the extra power will definitely show where parts that were adequate for stock are no longer adequate. TPC seems to be a good product, but with the changes that are made, this is inescapable.

I personally would invest in a full set of safety gear for any car, before investing in power mods.

ed

Yes, these are the sorts of the concerns I have (part of the reason why I never seriously considered putting a turbo in the Cayman). Will probably talk with TPC about their turbo kit, but not expecting an unbiased response. Fortunately, TPC isn't too far from me.

In this case, I'm looking at a car that already has the turbo kit (~500 hp!), and agree that I would definitely need to add full safety gear before tracking it. I don't need or crave that much power, but generally I'd rather have more power than less (cuz it's fun).

[vranko]

I'm looking at a car that already has the turbo kit (~500 hp!), and agree that I would definitely need to add full safety gear before tracking it.

Should everyone else that runs with you also be upgrading their safter gear ;)

[CanAm]

Should everyone else that runs with you also be upgrading their safter gear ;)

Y'all should have done that last season, but better late than never. :lol:

[ausgeflippt951]

That seems like a ton of power to be pumping through a hypothetically stock long block. Was that 500 hp quoted at the wheels? Has the motor had work done to it? How many pounds of boost is it running and has the CR been lowered?

Otherwise this smells like a grenade to me. TPC does seem like they do really nice work-- don't want to discount that-- but there are very few stock NA, high compression motors out there capable of handling heavy forced induction for very long.

[roundel]

It only needs to last to the tire wall.

[CanAm]

That seems like a ton of power to be pumping through a hypothetically stock long block. Was that 500 hp quoted at the wheels? Has the motor had work done to it? How many pounds of boost is it running and has the CR been lowered?

Otherwise this smells like a grenade to me. TPC does seem like they do really nice work-- don't want to discount that-- but there are very few stock NA, high compression motors out there capable of handling heavy forced induction for very long.

Here are the details: http://www.tpcracing.com/tpcracing-996997carreraturboct-conversion.html

As far as I know, it's a standard installation of the turbo kit, with whatever engine mods that normally entails.

[Cliff Claven]

It only needs to last to the tire wall.

x2. TPC turbo is a very good kit. but the car will be a handful for a n00b driver.

[spiffyjiff]

Should everyone else that runs with you also be upgrading their safter gear ;)

good one. :D

Otherwise this smells like a grenade to me. TPC does seem like they do really nice work-- don't want to discount that-- but there are very few stock NA, high compression motors out there capable of handling heavy forced induction for very long.

yep.



TPC is a great outfit but 2 things: when you turbo a car that wasn't orig meant to be turbo'd, the chances increase that there will be problems. even they will tell you that (i have talked to them about this mod on my S). if you want that much power and performance, get a proper car/engine built for that.

but beyond that, why are you even entertaining this - what happened to the GT2/3 talk??? i.e. i'm not sure if you're really contemplating all these things or if you're just posting to post.

[BlackTalon]

Installing a turbo without strengthening components in the bottom end and reducing compression ratio will typically shorten motor life on the street (catastrophic failure, not piddly-ass stuff like worn valve guides). And even more of a chance on the track, where you run at/ near redline a lot of the time.

Not that I really care, but I guess I would hate to see a track shut down for half a day with everyone else losing a lot of track time that they paid $$$ for.

[CanAm]

but beyond that, why are you even entertaining this - what happened to the GT2/3 talk??? i.e. i'm not sure if you're really contemplating all these things or if you're just posting to post.

Sorry, I can see how I'm creating confusion (I'm confused myself!). Main goal is get a 911 that can be tracked, sooner or later - really miss the one I had, the 911 is special. 997 GT3 would be ideal, but the price is more than I want to spend right now. GT2 is even more $, and at that price need to see how the 991 GT3 turns out and would need to sell the Cayman, which the wife won't permit right now. 996 GT3 maybe meets the criteria best, but need to find one, and will hopefully be checking one out this weekend. Non-GT 996 or 997 might also work (and brings the cost down), but might need an S to feel it has enough power compared to the Cayman. Would love a 993, but they seem even more expensive than the older 996s. 964 is definitely an option, and could live with the lesser power since it would offer the fun of an 'older' car, but want to see what I can find in a 996 or 997 first, since I know almost nothing about how to shop for an older car.

[FrankyV]

Note that you see very few turbo 911 cars in club racing as the abrupt power delivery is indeed a handful in the rear engined platform. And I saw a brand new build turbo 944 put his car into the wall pitting out for the first time at Road Atlanta on a dry track at last year's club race before the racer ever completed a lap so even in a weight-balanced chassis a turbo can be challenging. Modern turbos do minimize the lag but it is notable that the most popular modern Porsche race cars are generally not turbocharged.

[CanAm]

Note that you see very few turbo 911 cars in club racing as the abrupt power delivery is indeed a handful in the rear engined platform. And I saw a brand new build turbo 944 put his car into the wall pitting out for the first time at Road Atlanta on a dry track at last year's club race before the racer ever completed a lap so even in a weight-balanced chassis a turbo can be challenging. Modern turbos do minimize the lag but it is notable that the most popular modern Porsche race cars are generally not turbocharged.

Personally, I've always preferred NA engines. With this particular TPC turbo car, I'm hoping that it doesn't have much lag, but need to try it to see. If the throttle response is an on/off switch, the car will be a no go. Again, not really looking for quite that much power, but it's kinda nice to have it available when you want it (as I've found with the C63).

[Vicegrip]

Personally, I've always preferred NA engines. With this particular TPC turbo car, I'm hoping that it doesn't have much lag, but need to try it to see. If the throttle response is an on/off switch, the car will be a no go. Again, not really looking for quite that much power, but it's kinda nice to have it available when you want it (as I've found with the C63).
It will have more lag than a Porsche built modern turbo. It will last well if care for and driven well. It is not a Porsche turbo, it is a Porsche with more power and the issues that come with more power.

Your focus bracket seems to be 964 to 991 GT-3. Ether end of that bracket is not even close to the other in driving feel.

[CanAm]

Your focus bracket seems to be 964 to 991 GT-3. Ether end of that bracket is not even close to the other in driving feel.

Of course, haven't driven the 991 GT3, but have driven the 991 base and S, and agree that the feel of the 991 is much different from all the others. I know it's been said about pretty every new 911 generation, but I really don't think of the 991 as being a 911 anymore, though it's a great car in its own ways. If I wound up with a 991 at some point (and replaced the Cayman), would probably also supplement it with older and truer and less expensive 911, like a 964.

[smdubovsky]

notable that the most popular modern Porsche race cars are generally not turbocharged.

Because there generally aren't classes for the turbo cars anymore. Cup / GT / DP / ALMS / etc are all NA only rules or severely penalize turbos (turbo diesels excepted.) Some local club racing but thats about it. Thus no factory race cars. WRC is about the only place turbos are still welcomed and those aren't sports car derived body shells.

[BlackTalon]

In PCA CR I believe you go straight to GT classes, so be prepared to do another $75k or so to improving the car so it will be competitive :-)

[ausgeflippt951]

If you want a turbo, want a 911, and don't want to spend prodigious amounts of money (only semi-prodigious), how about a 993 GT2? They called em the Widow Maker for a reason :twisted:




OK I take that back. 993 GT2s are prodigiously expensive.

[CanAm]

OK I take that back. 993 GT2s are prodigiously expensive.

Seems like all the fast variants of the pre-996 911s are expensive (understandably).

[DanJK]

Define "fast".

[Mackliet]

Of course, haven't driven the 991 GT3, but have driven the 991 base and S, and agree that the feel of the 991 is much different from all the others. I know it's been said about pretty every new 911 generation, but I really don't think of the 991 as being a 911 anymore, though it's a great car in its own ways. If I wound up with a 991 at some point (and replaced the Cayman), would probably also supplement it with older and truer and less expensive 911, like a 964.
If you are considering a 964, and want something fast and fun, I think there is a local one on RSAmerica.net that should be considered.

[Trak Ratt]

... i'm not sure if you're really contemplating all these things or if you're just posting to post.popular believe I'm sure

[CanAm]

Define "fast".

I dunno. Roughly as fast as a base 996?

If you are considering a 964, and want something fast and fun, I think there is a local one on RSAmerica.net that should be considered.

Thanks for the tip, found it. Pricey but nice, and still in the same price range as other cars I'm considering. I'll do some reading on RSAs. Hoping it's best of both worlds - older feel and simplicity, modern speed.

popular believe I'm sure

Actually trying to post less these days, but the reality is that I still need advice, and even with all the ball busting, this forum is still the best place I've found to get it.

[Casey914]

You may or may not be hearing about the 991 gt3 soon. So, enjoy your cayman and have a beer.

[CanAm]

You may or may not be hearing about the 991 gt3 soon. So, enjoy your cayman and have a beer.

'Teaser' is supposed to be in February. Not much known about it at the moment.

[Dr K]

Irfan,
I look at this thread, and know that you and I have had some positive interaction off the board, but all I can think of is "THIS IS IDIOTIC!" You want to improve your track driving and are even considering a car that will be a true handful on the track, even for a VERY experienced driver. If you want to learn to drive a car at the limit, get a car you YOU will be able to drive near it's limit and if you go over the limit you won't be traveling at 170 MPH! Sorry, but that's how I see it and I don't want to see another car and driver crumpled.

[Casey914]

'Teaser' is supposed to be in February. Not much known about it at the moment.

Gonna be later than that and all is known, you just need to know the right people. I cant tell.

Casey

[BlackTalon]

Since going as fast as possible without getting into new GT2 money seems to be the object, the OP should look at Corvettes. By far the fastest track-worth car for the $$, and they actually have brakes now.

[CanAm]

Irfan,
I look at this thread, and know that you and I have had some positive interaction off the board, but all I can think of is "THIS IS IDIOTIC!" You want to improve your track driving and are even considering a car that will be a true handful on the track, even for a VERY experienced driver. If you want to learn to drive a car at the limit, get a car you YOU will be able to drive near it's limit and if you go over the limit you won't be traveling at 170 MPH! Sorry, but that's how I see it and I don't want to see another car and driver crumpled.

Points well taken, but for me it's not only about learning to be a better track driver. Also want to have fun in general, including when driving it on the road - and torque is fun. Kind of doubt it will get to 170 mph (haven't even seen GT2s do that at SP or VIR), but I wouldn't be flat out in the straights with a car like that anyway; would gradually build up speed, over years if needed, as I gained experience with driving and the car. Also, wrt learning, will continue tracking the Cayman, and probably start tracking the C63 also.

At this point, not really leaning towards the TPC turbo car because of the concerns noted by others in this thread, but can't rule it out yet and need to explore further. Cost isn't much more than an S and it only has 12K miles, so need to at least consider it. If I keep it only a couple years and put say 20K more miles on it, maybe less likely it'll blow up and might sell for not too much less than I paid. We'll see.

[ausgeflippt951]

Since going as fast as possible without getting into new GT2 money seems to be the object, the OP should look at Corvettes. By far the fastest track-worth car for the $$, and they actually have brakes now.

And we've even already got a thread for that!

[CanAm]

Since going as fast as possible without getting into new GT2 money seems to be the object, the OP should look at Corvettes. By far the fastest track-worth car for the $$, and they actually have brakes now.

On my radar, especially the new one. Rode in several last season and the handling seemed surprisingly similar to the Cayman, despite the different engine location.

[smdubovsky]

Kind of doubt it will get to 170 mph (haven't even seen GT2s do that at SP or VIR)

You haven't been looking. Should be easily doable at @ VIR. My tt will do 155 on street tires and street alignment at SP 'taking it easy.' (I hadn't even made a payment yet! ;)) Real rubber (so I can actually stop at T1) + some rear bar (so its not a pushing pig through T10) and thats probably worth close to another 10mph. A GT2 should have no problem doing 170 @ VIR out of the box. James Clay's bmw turbo wagon is doing 185 on the back straight iirc.

[}{arlequin]

those that can, improve.

those that can't, buy hp.

[CanAm]

You haven't been looking. Should be easily doable at @ VIR. My tt will do 155 on street tires and street alignment at SP 'taking it easy.' (I hadn't even made a payment yet! ;)) Real rubber (so I can actually stop at T1) + some rear bar (so its not a pushing pig through T10) and thats probably worth close to another 10mph. A GT2 should have no problem doing 170 @ VIR out of the box. James Clay's bmw turbo wagon is doing 185 on the back straight iirc.

Holy crap! :shock: I stand corrected. Would love to see some vids.

Certainly not my goal to approach those speeds any time soon. ~140 is plenty for me for now. It's more torque rather than high speed that I like.

[1ED1]

Never seen a street car that can do 170 at VIR.

[Trak Ratt]

... My tt will do 155 on street tires and street alignment at SP 'taking it easy.'
I hit an indicated 145 in a stu's tubo cab.... in the rain :oops: Then it started to hydoplane :shock: so I backed off a bit.

[Dr K]

If you're only going to do 140, get a car that's FUN to get to 140 in, not one you need to hold back. Where's the fun in that? Nice 964 on this board (my wife just said "you are NOT buying another car!").

[blipshift]

Torque? How about a BMW 335d? :p

[Cliff Claven]

just get the car. obviously you want it. maximum torque gives maximum acceleration coming out of the turns. nothing could be more fun! (unlike those silly slower cars DrK keeps recommending that force you to focus more on cornering skill and maintaining momentum rather than flat out point and squirt).

[CanAm]

If you're only going to do 140, get a car that's FUN to get to 140 in, not one you need to hold back. Where's the fun in that? Nice 964 on this board (my wife just said "you are NOT buying another car!").

Benefit of greater speed capability is that I can gradually increase that 140 as I'm ready, so I can keep 'growing into' the car. Plus, there will always be the more important challenge of cornering well. But again, I'm just looking at this TPC car because I stumbled on it, not particularly seeking that much power; I'm taking Stephen's caution from the other thread seriously. Same dealer also has a 997.2 C2 (base) that I'm considering.

The 964 just posted looks good, but 120K miles with possibility of an engine rebuild on the horizon concerns me. The RSA looks really nice, but need to learn more before spending that much on an older car. Baneff's 911 was probably the way to go, but unfortunately the timing wasn't right. :bang:

BTW, Cayman R can also top out at over 170, but not at any track I've ever been to. Highest I've hit per the speedo is about 140.

Torque? How about a BMW 335d? :p

IMO, diesel's great for the street, but lack of hp means acceleration drops off as speed gets high, and top speed is limited.

[Dr K]

Benefit of greater speed capability is that I can gradually increase that 140 as I'm ready, so I can keep 'growing into' the car. Plus, there will always be the more important challenge of cornering well.

You don't learn to drive by "growing into a car" - you learn to drive by getting the absolute most out of a car. THEN you can start again in a faster car. But you learn to drive a car near it's limits, not just to drive faster by moving from 5/10ths to 6/10ths. I'm done with this thread - too frustrating.

[CanAm]

You don't learn to drive by "growing into a car" - you learn to drive by getting the absolute most out of a car. THEN you can start again in a faster car. But you learn to drive a car near it's limits, not just to drive faster by moving from 5/10ths to 6/10ths. I'm done with this thread - too frustrating.

Not putting your foot to the floor all the way down the straights doesn't mean you can't continue to work towards 10/10ths in the corners. We're just talking about setting a speed limit in the straights, for safety if nothing else. I don't see much 'learning' lost by doing that.

But anyway, the original topic of this thread is about experiences with performance of TPC turbos and their impact on the rest of the car, not what kind of car is best suited to me and my goals.

[Robert in Potomac]

Top end speed is most relevant to the question "How fast do you go on the track?" In my experience, my speed before breaking in T1 at SP or on the back straight at VIR, does not dirrectly correlate with my lap times. I remember a couple of times delaying my braking, just to hit 155+ at SP and over 160 at VIR and then standing on the brakes to enter the corner with some hope of turning.

But, I am learning that more gradual braking and earlier acceleration in and out of the corner, generally results in lower top end entry speed, but, if done correctly, faster net lap times.

So, for what it is worth, forget about top speed just before braking and concentrate on increasing speed through and out of the corner.

[Vicegrip]

All cars when driven to their full value are momentum cars. Square out the corners in a GT-2 and you wil still pass most other cars in a DE run group. have another GT-2 on track with you that is driving well and he will chase you down.

I disagree that is is harder to drive a slow car fast. I think it is harder to drive a fast car fast. I think that "fast" is to the full cap of the car. A fast car has all the aspects of a slow car and some more to deal with. A 912 and a white 7 hp per pount non locking dif track car as example. 912 coming out of corner...Mash gas pedal and note that it is was already at WOT. White car same corner, mash the brakes to get the front tight and get the car turning, turn in and hold a drift as the aero falls offand am left with mech grip only, feather in power to keep the inside rear as close to the same speed the outside rear tire and back end from breaking loose altogether.
T4 in 912...turn in, pick nose, check result, flick, check finger and reflick if needed then stand on brakes for T5. White car, suck in a breath try and remember that aero at T4 speeds = pimpin' grip yo, feather out on gas and press brakes a bit to set nose, turn in, settle car and get back on the power just in time to eyeballs out drop anchor for T5,suck in some air while turning in at T5.

[CanAm]

Top end speed is most relevant to the question "How fast do you go on the track?" In my experience, my speed before breaking in T1 at SP or on the back straight at VIR, does not dirrectly correlate with my lap times. I remember a couple of times delaying my braking, just to hit 155+ at SP and over 160 at VIR and then standing on the brakes to enter the corner with some hope of turning.

But, I am learning that more gradual braking and earlier acceleration in and out of the corner, generally results in lower top end entry speed, but, if done correctly, faster net lap times.

So, for what it is worth, forget about top speed just before braking and concentrate on increasing speed through and out of the corner.

This is what I was taught by an excellent driver, and the drop in my lap times seems to bear it out. I've been steadily working on braking earlier, tapering off the brakes as smoothly as possible, and increasing my corner entry speed. Next thing I want to work on is more trailbraking into corners, though I know of one podium club racer who says he never trailbrakes (?).

I hate the "how fast have you gone on track?" question from people who've never been on track. :roll: It can be tiring to explain over and over again that going fast in a straight line isn't all that exciting or challenging.

[roundel]

pick nose, check result, flick, check finger and reflick if needed

I was wondering why I had green goo on my windshield. :grrr:

[CanAm]

All cars when driven to their full value are momentum cars. Square out the corners in a GT-2 and you wil still pass most other cars in a DE run group. have another GT-2 on track with you that is driving well and he will chase you down.

I disagree that is is harder to drive a slow car fast. I think it is harder to drive a fast car fast. I think that "fast" is to the full cap of the car. A fast car has all the aspects of a slow car and some more to deal with.

Makes sense to me that driving a fast car near its limit would be more challenging than driving a slow car near its limit (assuming no special driver aids, etc.). Everything is happening faster overall, so more demands on the driver.

A lot of people seem to be arguing that some drivers will 'cheat' by driving a fast car at 7/10ths to be as fast as a slow car at 9/10ths. Perhaps, and if that's what they want to do, I don't really care; if they're safe, how they choose to have fun is up to them - DE isn't racing or race school. But it doesn't necessarily follow that the guy driving the fast car at 7/10ths won't be working on eventually getting to 9/10ths, and learning in the process. And it also doesn't follow that having 1000 hp prevents a driver from trying and learning to corner well.

Personally, if I get an older and slower Porsche, it will mainly be to get a different sort of driving experience, not to accelerate my learning. I've already learned enough to be much safer on the road (not that I was getting involved in accidents anyway), and I have no aspiration to be a pro racer or even a podium club racer.

[}{arlequin]

...

[racer]

964 ($15,000) + motor rebuild ($15,000?) is still MUCH less than a 996GT3/997/etc.

I also think you don't want an "old" car. So why get one? Just get what you want, worry less about what others think (unless they are PPI related questions) and have fun!

I think a built up SPEC boxster would be a great track car for you since it is essentially your Cayman, but faster :twisted:

[CanAm]

964 ($15,000) + motor rebuild ($15,000?) is still MUCH less than a 996GT3/997/etc.

I also think you don't want an "old" car. So why get one? Just get what you want, worry less about what others think (unless they are PPI related questions) and have fun!

I think a built up SPEC boxster would be a great track car for you since it is essentially your Cayman, but faster :twisted:

Main deterrent for me getting in an older car is my lack of knowledge about them - which to get, inspection, maintenance, repair, etc. Would love to learn about all that, and do more hands-on stuff, but there's only so much time, and my driving/car time is still more focused on the driving part. The Cayman has had zero issues with over 20K miles and over 10K track miles, which IMO is impressive.

Related story. My cousin recently told me he wants to get a Porsche and get on track. Really wanted a 911 turbo. I told him it'll be too fast and RWD is probably a better way to go. I suggested going used CPO, spending under $50K, getting either a Cayman or non-turbo RWD 996/997, insuring it for the track, and doing DEs with his local PCA groups. I didn't recommend that he go older than a 996 because he's a very busy guy and I thought a modern reliable car will suit him better for the combination of road and track use he has in mind.

[ausgeflippt951]

Main deterrent for me getting in an older car is my lack of knowledge about them - which to get, inspection, maintenance, repair, etc. Would love to learn about all that, and do more hands-on stuff, but there's only so much time, and my driving/car time is still more focused on the driving part. The Cayman has had zero issues with over 20K miles and over 10K track miles, which IMO is impressive.

Related story. My cousin recently told me he wants to get a Porsche and get on track. Really wanted a 911 turbo. I told him it'll be too fast and RWD is probably a better way to go. I suggested going used CPO, spending under $50K, getting either a Cayman or non-turbo RWD 996/997, insuring it for the track, and doing DEs with his local PCA groups. I didn't recommend that he go older than a 996 because he's a very busy guy and I thought a modern reliable car will suit him better for the combination of road and track use he has in mind.


Perhaps you are thinking, "If I own an old car, I am required to become my own mechanic and can no longer take it into a shop when something breaks." This is a fallacy -- there are a number of extremely reputable old-car mechanics in your neck of the woods; the even better part is that the average service is often cheaper than a comparable service at a dealership on a new car. Especially if you find a very well-sorted, updated older car, nothing whatsoever changes on your end: you take it to the mechanic to get it ready for the next DE, you drive the piss out of it, and you take it back to the mechanic when something breaks.


Not that it's either here or there, but old cars -- especially many of the N/A air-cooled 911's -- can be more reliable than a modern car. Hell, even an N/A 944 with a newish wiring harness, clutch, fuel lines, water pump/belts/hoses, and oil will go for 300k miles on the stock bottom end (Note: total cost of service for all aforementioned updates would only be around $4-5k for said 944).

[ausgeflippt951]

There are two reasons why people who own older cars also tend to be their own mechanic:

1) Old cars are usually much more simple than newer cars, and require simpler (read: cheaper) tools.
2) We tend to be cheap bastards who don't want to pay someone else to work on our cars.

[CanAm]

Perhaps you are thinking, "If I own an old car, I am required to become my own mechanic and can no longer take it into a shop when something breaks." This is a fallacy -- there are a number of extremely reputable old-car mechanics in your neck of the woods; the even better part is that the average service is often cheaper than a comparable service at a dealership on a new car. Especially if you find a very well-sorted, updated older car, nothing whatsoever changes on your end: you take it to the mechanic to get it ready for the next DE, you drive the piss out of it, and you take it back to the mechanic when something breaks.


Not that it's either here or there, but old cars -- especially many of the N/A air-cooled 911's -- can be more reliable than a modern car. Hell, even an N/A 944 with a newish wiring harness, clutch, fuel lines, water pump/belts/hoses, and oil will go for 300k miles on the stock bottom end (Note: total cost of service for all aforementioned updates would only be around $4-5k for said 944).

Given how little I know about the older cars, can't disagree with you. But when driving to tracks far away, gives me some peace of mind to know that the car is newer (less worn out overall), covered by warranty, dealers anywhere should be able to fix it, etc. BTW, we get all of our non-warranty servicing done by a local shop (SSI), not a dealer, since they understand track use.

[roundel]

There are three reasons why people who own older cars also tend to be their own mechanic:

1) Old cars are usually much more simple than newer cars, and require simpler (read: cheaper) tools.
2) We tend to be cheap bastards who don't want to pay someone else to work on our cars.
3) We prefer DIY so we know that the guy working on our track car understands that a mistake could be very dangerous and understanding the car and its maintenance increases our awareness on track.

ftfy

[ausgeflippt951]

Good point! Totally agree.

[CanAm]

I'll take the other side of this slow vs fast car debate for a moment. Best argument I can think of for going with a slow car is that it'll force the driver to learn to drive it well to keep up with the faster cars, since there'll be no possibility of 'cheating'.

That's fine, BUT I'm not in favor of forcing people in that way. If somebody's having fun and staying safe, who cares if their learning is slower? If they're satisfied with progressing slowly through run groups, so be it. Their choice. The exception to this would be if somebody said they're determined to be a competitive racer and wants help getting there (not me), the choice of car could matter more.

[BlackTalon]

40+ track days/ year is a lot, especially if on at least half of those days there are two drivers. No matter how old/ new the car is, plan on caliper rebuilds each season, wheel bearing replacements every 2 seasons, etc. Ongoing maintenance/ preventative maintenance is going to be the biggest issue.

An older 911/ 964 that has already had an engine rebuild will likely log a lot more track miles then a 60k mile 996 that has not yet been rebuilt.

And even with a brand new 911 (991), chances are you will want to replace/ upgrade the suspension before too much time passes due to all the track time you log.

[Bill]

I am not sure where you want to end up in all of this but let me throw out a discussion possibility. We have an '07 997 cup car that we are interested in selling. I note that you have a Cayman and we are toying with the idea of entering one of the Cayman spec series. It would be interesting to see how your car is prepared and if we could work a swap with cash. Both of us might be able to reach our goal. Call if this is a possibility--410-712-4290. We are At Speed Motorsports and would like to see if there is any interest. Ask for Morgan or Bill.






Sorry, I can see how I'm creating confusion (I'm confused myself!). Main goal is get a 911 that can be tracked, sooner or later - really miss the one I had, the 911 is special. 997 GT3 would be ideal, but the price is more than I want to spend right now. GT2 is even more $, and at that price need to see how the 991 GT3 turns out and would need to sell the Cayman, which the wife won't permit right now. 996 GT3 maybe meets the criteria best, but need to find one, and will hopefully be checking one out this weekend. Non-GT 996 or 997 might also work (and brings the cost down), but might need an S to feel it has enough power compared to the Cayman. Would love a 993, but they seem even more expensive than the older 996s. 964 is definitely an option, and could live with the lesser power since it would offer the fun of an 'older' car, but want to see what I can find in a 996 or 997 first, since I know almost nothing about how to shop for an older car.

[John Clay]

I'll take the other side of this slow vs fast car debate for a moment. Best argument I can think of for going with a slow car is that it'll force the driver to learn to drive it well to keep up with the faster cars, since there'll be no possibility of 'cheating'.

That's fine, BUT I'm not in favor of forcing people in that way. If somebody's having fun and staying safe, who cares if their learning is slower? If they're satisfied with progressing slowly through run groups, so be it. Their choice. The exception to this would be if somebody said they're determined to be a competitive racer and wants help getting there (not me), the choice of car could matter more.

The point of the slow car isn't to force you to try to keep up. The point is that it is easier and safer to drive a slow car fast than drive a fast car fast. After you learn to drive the slow car fast (budget permitting) you can move to a faster car. The argument is that it is easier to move from driving a slow car fast to driving a fast car fast than it is to move from driving a fast car slow to a fast car fast.

[Vicegrip]

I'll take the other side of this slow vs fast car debate for a moment. Best argument I can think of for going with a slow car is that it'll force the driver to learn to drive it well to keep up with the faster cars, since there'll be no possibility of 'cheating'.

. Disagree. Force and try all you want you will just get passed and once the faster car is well past you it is just you and the road alone again. Trying to catch faster cars is a great way to catch a tire wall. The best car to learn in and fine tune real driving is one that is almost the same as others in your group. Nothing, and I mean nothing will get you in the groove like other same pace and type cars around to catch or run from. All cars in the group pick it up when this happens. Rabbits and Foxs alike tighten up the focus and drive with reason.
lap times are not just the measure as I can be the same lap time as other sub 1:19 cars and not have fun with them. They tend to be faster on the straights and slower (due to weight/aero rather than lesser driving) in the corners. Once I get close to one I get held in the corners and loose time that I can't make on the straights. DE and CR are both fillig up with modern cars. I think the days of a growling pack of SC's and the like are fading. Go new and watch more like you show up each weekend.

The point of the slow car isn't to force you to try to keep up. The point is that it is easier and safer to drive a slow car fast than drive a fast car fast. After you learn to drive the slow car fast (budget permitting) you can move to a faster car. The argument is that it is easier to move from driving a slow car fast to driving a fast car fast than it is to move from driving a fast car slow to a fast car fast.The problem is that any increased level of speed and power becomes the new normal.

white car coming out of T9, inside tire 0 to 20 mph faster than the outside tire tweeking the wheel to keep the spin in control and the back end in and I am still thinking "Moar powar" :twisted:

[Charlie Stylianos]

I'm still looking for a 996 GT3, but meanwhile I ran across a 997S with a TPC turbo kit, TPC sway bars, low miles, and price not much more than a 996 GT3. Any thoughts on performance of the TPC turbo and how it affects durability of the car? Will the engine need a rebuild sooner? Will the brakes need an upgrade for track use? Anything else to be concerned about?

Given how little I know about the older cars, can't disagree with you. But when driving to tracks far away, gives me some peace of mind to know that the car is newer (less worn out overall), covered by warranty, dealers anywhere should be able to fix it, etc. BTW, we get all of our non-warranty servicing done by a local shop (SSI), not a dealer, since they understand track use.

Back to your original question. Does the TPC Turbo come with a warranty? Are there shops near tracks that would know how to fix a TPC related issue (under warranty or not)? I wouldn’t touch it with a 10" pole if you’re going to be tracking it all.

A well sorted "older" car would be much more reliable, cheaper, and easier to maintain than the ticking time bomb you are considering.

Why would you even consider this if it doesn’t fit your “criteria”?

[}{arlequin]

Benefit of greater speed capability is that I can gradually increase that 140 as I'm ready, so I can keep 'growing into' the car.
you're right, pilots just hop and grow into a jet plane instead of bothering w/ the slow, old, cessnas.

:mckayla:

[BMAN]

I'll try to get it back on topic before this thread gets shut down. ;)

I owned a Cayman TPC Turbo and tracked it in my first year of driving. It was a great product in my experience. Mike's turbo kits are designed to run on low boost, 4-6lbs, but provide amazing results. Acceleration is very linear and strong. I would suggest test driving one yourself, I think you'll be impressed. TPC can adjust the tune via OBDII and set it to low boost for track use, which is how I ran it.

I sold it because I got an offer to trade it for an '09 Cayman with the new DFI engine. Turbo or not, I felt pre-DFI oiling system had some weakness and wanted to move to the newer engine due to it's revised oiling system. I was willing to give up the speed for reliability. Adding a turbo to a NA engine has obvious risks but if you're going to do it, TPC is a wise choice.

Which car is better to learn in, fast or slower. I dunno, it's all relative in my experience. I would agree, its probably safer to learn how to drive a slower car fast than it is a fast car fast. But so much depends on the nut behind the wheel and what he/she feels. I agree ALL cars are momentum cars in one way or another. I still have a ways to go in the CUP car but, without a doubt, it's a momentum car if you want turn a quick lap.


As far as 170mph in a GT2 at VIR, I never got there. Maybe on the speedo but going from memory my GPS top speed was in the 164-166 range. Betcha I could get 167 today :)

[John Clay]

The way this wind is howling, I could get 107 if it's at my back.

[CanAm]

Drove the TPC 911 today and it rocked - exceeded expectations.

Turbo lag isn't bad, and throttle response is reasonably linear. Acceleration is strong, but nothing crazy or scary. Handling is good too (has TPC sway bars, maybe alignment has been optimized). Has a short shift kit and alcantara steering wheel and shifter. Seems that somebody was trying to create a poor man's GT2, and did a pretty good job of it.

Main questions I need to look into now are what other mods it might have, and how the turbo kit will affect the durability, reliability, and safety of the car. Adding the turbo kit without beefing up the rest of the car is certainly a concern. Anyone out there in Dorkiland (besides BMAN) with personal experience with TPC turbo car?

Edit: The car is priced at about Blue Book, so the TPC stuff and other nice touches are effectively free. I'm estimating that doing the TPC stuff now would cost about $15K to $20K. So the price of the car is part of the appeal.

[Trak Ratt]

Nice to see the Mods maintain a good sense of humor


TPC Turbos? aka The Walter Mitty Chronicles (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525) (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/images/styles/bingo/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525) 2 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525&page=2) 3 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525&page=3) 4 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525&page=4) 5 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525&page=5) 6 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525&page=6) 7 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29525&page=7))
Irfan

Or a strong sense of the macabre’

[CanAm]

The point of the slow car isn't to force you to try to keep up. The point is that it is easier and safer to drive a slow car fast than drive a fast car fast. After you learn to drive the slow car fast (budget permitting) you can move to a faster car. The argument is that it is easier to move from driving a slow car fast to driving a fast car fast than it is to move from driving a fast car slow to a fast car fast.

Disagree. Force and try all you want you will just get passed and once the faster car is well past you it is just you and the road alone again. Trying to catch faster cars is a great way to catch a tire wall. The best car to learn in and fine tune real driving is one that is almost the same as others in your group. Nothing, and I mean nothing will get you in the groove like other same pace and type cars around to catch or run from. All cars in the group pick it up when this happens. Rabbits and Foxs alike tighten up the focus and drive with reason.
lap times are not just the measure as I can be the same lap time as other sub 1:19 cars and not have fun with them. They tend to be faster on the straights and slower (due to weight/aero rather than lesser driving) in the corners. Once I get close to one I get held in the corners and loose time that I can't make on the straights. DE and CR are both fillig up with modern cars. I think the days of a growling pack of SC's and the like are fading. Go new and watch more like you show up each weekend.

Good points. Part of the reason I've stayed on street tires is actually to be slower/safer when near the limit. But it's time to start trying to some new things ...

[Lupin..the..3rd]

Good points. Part of the reason I've stayed on street tires is actually to be slower/safer when near the limit. But it's time to start trying to some new things ...
That's one of the reasons the new Toyota / Subaru BRZ is so fun to drive; it's got RWD and decent power - but on skinny Prius tires, so you can slide it around and have a lot of fun, at low safe speeds. You could apply the same formula in this case. I know Fikse and others will make wheels in custom sizes and offsets. Find yourself a nice GT3 or GT2 even, and exchange the wheels for some custom 18x6's with 205 rubber all around. It's a win-win.

[ausgeflippt951]

I confess I had to look up who Walter Mitty was :oops:

[CanAm]

I confess I had to look up who Walter Mitty was :oops:

Me too. Heard the name, but didn't know who he was. But if I get the TPC car, fantasy will turn into reality. :D

[John Clay]

That's one of the reasons the new Toyota / Subaru BRZ is so fun to drive; it's got RWD and decent power - but on skinny Prius tires, so you can slide it around and have a lot of fun, at low safe speeds. You could apply the same formula in this case. I know Fikse and others will make wheels in custom sizes and offsets. Find yourself a nice GT3 or GT2 even, and exchange the wheels for some custom 18x6's with 205 rubber all around. It's a win-win.

Jeremy Clarkson quote:

And now we get to the nub of Toyota’s genius. The company fitted the GT86 with the same skinny little tyres it uses on the Prius. And what this means is that there is very little grip. You turn into a corner at what by modern standards is a pedestrian speed, and immediately you feel the tail start to slide.

So you let it go a little bit, and when the angle is just so, you find a throttle position that keeps it there. For ever. You are power-sliding, you are grinning like an ape and you are doing about 13mph. Which means that if you do make a mess of it and you’re heading for a tree, you can open the door and get out.

[blipshift]

you're right, pilots just hop and grow into a jet plane instead of bothering w/ the slow, old, cessnas.

:mckayla:

Irfan, }{ makes a very salient point; guys don't start out doing BFM in Hornets and landing on the boat on day 1...there is a strong precedence (earned in blood) in aviation for starting slow and working up, one which I subscribe to 100% and one which translates very well to motorsport. Have you ever tracked anything slower than your Cayman R?

[blipshift]

Reason I ask is because you've said yourself that you have yet to reach the limits of your Cayman...shouldn't you really work to reach 10/10 in that car or downgrade into something that you can before you move into a faster car with higher limits only to surpass them? Devil's advocate, food for thought.

[CanAm]

Irfan, }{ makes a very salient point; guys don't start out doing BFM in Hornets and landing on the boat on day 1...there is a strong precedence (earned in blood) in aviation for starting slow and working up, one which I subscribe to 100% and one which translates very well to motorsport. Have you ever tracked anything slower than your Cayman R?

Reason I ask is because you've said yourself that you have yet to reach the limits of your Cayman...shouldn't you really work to reach 10/10 in that car or downgrade into something that you can before you move into a faster car with higher limits only to surpass them? Devil's advocate, food for thought.

Dang, some people really don't want me to get that freakin car. :D

Have briefly tracked the C63 (on a whim). Was slower than the CR mainly because it was on all-season tires. It was fun, but clearly needed better tires (cornering grip was laughable, and didn't seem to want to stop :shock:).

Regarding the plane analogy, gap between the 911 TPC vs Cayman R doesn't seem huge to me (based on driving them back to back today). The TPC has much more power, but the power delivery isn't hard to manage, no sudden torque spike. The appeal of adding the 911, for use on both road and track, is the different feel, not simply speed.

May never reach 10/10 in the Cayman or any car, but that's OK. As long as I'm making progress in whatever cars I'm driving, and having fun in the process, that's good enough for me. As I said before, I don't have a goal to be a competitive racer, not even secretly (my real job is competitive enough!).

When it comes to choosing cars, I say live and let live. I'd never walk around the paddock telling guys in Green/Blue/White to sell their fast modern Porsches, or leave them home, and instead bring a slow car to the track. If you've got the car, track it and enjoy!

[smdubovsky]

I don't see the point of a TPC 911. Its likely a nightmare on resale farther down the road. Possibly reliability. 996tts are in the $40s. Low mileage 997.1tts are approx upper $60s. Just get the real thing. W/ real brakes, real transmission, real power, and all the other real upgraded bits. It will have better resale down the road too. And before you do a "but its awd waah waah waah", its an hour to convert a tt to rwd (and its reversible.)

I *GET* the TPC kit in a cayman. They don't make a GTx or turbo version of that. It NEEDS a higher power version that porsche wont build. But IMO it doesn't make sense in a 911. Not knocking the TPC kit, but porsche did a better job engineering the turbo cars.

[CanAm]

I don't see the point of a TPC 911. Its likely a nightmare on resale farther down the road. Possibly reliability. 996tts are in the $40s. Low mileage 997.1tts are approx upper $60s. Just get the real thing. W/ real brakes, real transmission, real power, and all the other real upgraded bits. It will have better resale down the road too. And before you do a "but its awd waah waah waah", its an hour to convert a tt to rwd (and its reversible.)

I *GET* the TPC kit in a cayman. They don't make a GTx or turbo version of that. It NEEDS a higher power version that porsche wont build. But IMO it doesn't make sense in a 911. Not knocking the TPC kit, but porsche did a better job engineering the turbo cars.

Thanks, never would have guessed that. Upper 60s is too much, but 40s is good and RWD 996tt sounds good. I'll broaden my search (even further), and will make this decision carefully.

You and some others make this forum a hugely valuable resource. :cool:

[blipshift]

Dang, some people really don't want me to get that freakin car. :D


Irfan, first, don't BS anyone, the C63 has 460hp and you want to argue that its "slow"? I honestly could care less about the car (996/997/996GT3/997GT3/964/Corvette/TPC) or whatever the flavor of the second is for you because thats truly not the issue. It's really about your attitude. Think about it, you're tracking 40+ times a season yet still haven't reached the limits of your Cayman nor have you added any safety gear and now you're looking at upgrading to a faster car? It's apparent that you're unhappy to be average, kudos, yet you don't have the balls to push the car (add saftey gear or get something slower) and would rather spend money to achieve gratification over perfecting technique. You do what you want but if it were me I'd feel like I was cheating. Ultimately, your inner conflict to be better but lack of balls to get there is holding you back and until you learn to be comfortable in chaos, on the hairy edge with pucker factor 10, you will never truly progress or be "good." I realize I'm a different breed, so take it with a grain of salt.

[CanAm]

Irfan, first, don't BS anyone, the C63 has 460hp and you want to argue that its "slow"? I honestly could care less about the car (996/997/996GT3/997GT3/964/Corvette/TPC) or whatever the flavor of the second is for you because thats truly not the issue. It's really about your attitude. Think about it, you're tracking 40+ times a season yet still haven't reached the limits of your Cayman nor have you added any safety gear and now you're looking at upgrading to a faster car? It's apparent that you're unhappy to be average, kudos, yet you don't have the balls to push the car (add saftey gear or get something slower) and would rather spend money to achieve gratification over perfecting technique. You do what you want but if it were me I'd feel like I was cheating. Ultimately, your inner conflict to be better but lack of balls to get there is holding you back and until you learn to be comfortable in chaos, on the hairy edge with pucker factor 10, you will never truly progress or be "good." I realize I'm a different breed, so take it with a grain of salt.

The hp of the C63 doesn't help when cornering and braking on all-season tires. Put the same tires on it as the CR and I believe the lap times are comparable, at least on the 'ring. The acceleration is good, but it's also a 4,000 lb sedan.

Regarding how close to the edge I'm taking the CR, how are you judging that? If I say I'm not at 10/10, that doesn't mean I'm at 7/10. And I don't generally hear instructors advocating that students have more 'balls' in DEs. Remember, it's not racing. I'm going fast enough to hold my own among other 'fast' cars in advanced groups, and that's fast enough for me.

Regarding safety gear, I do plan to get it, but keep in mind that the car is also driven on the road, not a dedicated DE car. Roll bar in a road car is generally considered more hazard than benefit.

Chill out. None of us need to justify our car choices to others. I'm certainly not going to.

[BlackTalon]

^^that is a great summation of what many Dorkis have been saying for the last 6 months.

But this thread is about the good/ bad of a TPC 911, so it doesn't count :-)

[CanAm]

^^that is a great summation of what many Dorkis have been saying for the last 6 months.

But this thread is about the good/ bad of a TPC 911, so it doesn't count :-)

That's what I'm interested in. And Stephen's advice in that regard makes the whole thread worthwhile for me.

If I ever get a slow DE car, I'll also have a fast one. ;)

[Dr K]

Roll bar in a road car is generally considered more hazard than benefit.

I think you mean roll cage, right? Roll bar is fine on the street, and allows you to run harnesses.

But I'm thinking you should get the TPC Turbo. It will be a blast on the track, and you can hold back on the straights and go like hell in the turns. Just don't read what Kurt wrote about taking Turn 4 in his white car - that will ruin the suspense for you--just try it. Maybe you'll get your car's photos up in Chez Summit like that GT3. And if you happen to avoid that, maybe you'll eventually learn to drive it the way it was meant to be driven. Until then, though, why not spend a little more time on 6Speed and less time here, since you'll get much more agreement there than you seem to be getting here.

I wanted to post this because in over 80 posts, I think this is the first one that agrees with anything you've said (that it, of the posts not written by you, and this one might be sarcastic).

[CanAm]

I think you mean roll cage, right? Roll bar is fine on the street, and allows you to run harnesses.

But I'm thinking you should get the TPC Turbo. It will be a blast on the track, and you can hold back on the straights and go like hell in the turns. Just don't read what Kurt wrote about taking Turn 4 in his white car - that will ruin the suspense for you--just try it. Maybe you'll get your car's photos up in Chez Summit like that GT3. And if you happen to avoid that, maybe you'll eventually learn to drive it the way it was meant to be driven. Until then, though, why not spend a little more time on 6Speed and less time here, since you'll get much more agreement there than you seem to be getting here.

I wanted to post this because in over 80 posts, I think this is the first one that agrees with anything you've said (that it, of the posts not written by you, and this one might be sarcastic).

No, I've heard that the roll bar is also considered a hazard on the street, depending on where it's installed.

I appreciate your intentions, but honestly, I don't need all the patronizing preachy unsolicited advice to get a slow car. That's why the thread is too long. Read the first post and stick to the topic if you want to keep the thread short.

Fast cars are commonly found in all run groups in DEs, and that's not going to change, so try to deal with it. And better to drive them on the track than the road.

[Trak Ratt]

No, I've heard that the roll bar is also considered a hazard on the street, depending on where it's installed... Installed correctly they are not. The only way they are "dangerous" is if your head can hit it in an accident. Wear your seat belt and its fine
The rest is funny but just more BS, so pass on commenting

[CanAm]

Installed correctly they are not. The only way they are "dangerous" is if your head can hit it in an accident. Wear your seat belt and its fine

That's my understanding. Not sure yet about the specifics of this for the Cayman. Was going to get a prefab roll bar recommended by the shop, but they're no longer making it. Shop offered to custom-build a roll bar for it, but that raises a bunch of other questions.

[Trak Ratt]

... but that raises a bunch of other questions.Which I'm sure you will be asking :roll: Ask/see B-man's. Prolly the best roll bar I've seen in a Gayman in a look time.

[vranko]

Which I'm sure you will be asking :roll: Ask/see B-man's. Prolly the best roll bar I've seen in a Gayman in a look time.

Yes. Both Ms BMANs bar and mine were done by Piper. My design was the precursor to hers. Mine has a crossbar over the engine cover. Hers does not. Piper does nice, high quality work and the price wasn't much higher than the cost of an aftermarket bar plus installation costs.

[CanAm]

Which I'm sure you will be asking :roll: Ask/see B-man's. Prolly the best roll bar I've seen in a Gayman in a look time.

Good idea to match hers, if possible.

Why wouldn't I ask those questions? If you're going to install a major safety item, need to make sure it's done right, so it does its job if the need arises.

[Vicegrip]

That's my understanding. Not sure yet about the specifics of this for the Cayman. Was going to get a prefab roll bar recommended by the shop, but they're no longer making it. Shop offered to custom-build a roll bar for it, but that raises a bunch of other questions.
No it does not. Adding a roll bar is like sticking some Band-Aids in your back pocket before entering a knife fight and the more often you get into knife fights the more likely you will be cut.
Simply put, all safety systems are a compromise. Just as street pads suck on the track street based cars are less safe than a car that has a well thought out and built track type safety system. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the roll bar alone is going to make a single % change in your safety. A roll bar is little more than a good place to add shoulder belts. This is the good part. A good seating and belt system does make a jump in safety but requires you to lessen the street use and safety. Just don’t fool yourself that one brand of ½ a system is better than another. They are both ½.
You have to compromise the cars street use to improve the impact protection. The next level in safety beyond ½ requires far more commitment.
Do you want to get a safer car, a faster one or both? It all is a math problem. Likelihood of each event type. Energy levels during each event type. Faster impact deltas = higher energy levels. Do the math on G forces at impact speeds. Look at the speed deltas between you and the stuff on the side of the track and then think about your car. Every car you own or list out can easily outrun its stock safety system. It is not the car it is the safety system you use in any car that matters the most. The rest is just internet fap fap fap….

[CanAm]

No it does not. Adding a roll bar is like sticking some Band-Aids in your back pocket before entering a knife fight and the more often you get into knife fights the more likely you will be cut.
Simply put, all safety systems are a compromise. Just as street pads suck on the track street based cars are less safe than a car that has a well thought out and built track type safety system. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the roll bar alone is going to make a single % change in your safety. A roll bar is little more than a good place to add shoulder belts. This is the good part. A good seating and belt system does make a jump in safety but requires you to lessen the street use and safety. Just don’t fool yourself that one brand of ½ a system is better than another. They are both ½.
You have to compromise the cars street use to improve the impact protection. The next level in safety beyond ½ requires far more commitment.
Do you want to get a safer car, a faster one or both? It all is a math problem. Likelihood of each event type. Energy levels during each event type. Faster impact deltas = higher energy levels. Do the math on G forces at impact speeds. Look at the speed deltas between you and the stuff on the side of the track and then think about your car. Every car you own or list out can easily outrun its stock safety system. It is not the car it is the safety system you use in any car that matters the most. The rest is just internet fap fap fap….

If we get the roll bar, we'll of course get the proper seats, harness, etc., but are you saying that the roll bar itself doesn't add much safety? Does that mean a harness bar could be used instead of a roll bar without much reduction in safety? :?

I don't know how much experience our shop has with installing roll bars in Caymans, so my questions were about materials, configuration, bending, welding, connections, etc. they'd use. But sounds like Piper is the best source for this.

[Vicegrip]

yes. you can answer this via math. Likelyhood of hitting something? One car a DE weekend is my rule of thumb. (CR, one car per Green flag) Likelyhood of hitting something and rolling over in DE? One a year or so. Likely hood of hitting something, rolling over and crushing the roof at the B pillar in? Very rare in DE but could happen. Keep in mind that a roll bar only protects the B pillar area not the A pillar area which is most often where a roof indents during a roll over. OK, Pen and slide rule aside, unlikely to roll, very unlikey to roll and crush the roof in much, very very unlikley to roll and crush the roof in the B pillar area. Some might think that your efforts and money would be better spent on safety elsewhere. Some people also say "OMFG if you roll and are held up right in your race seat your head will be shoved down into your ass! Don't add seats and better belt systems unless you have a rollbar as it is better to just use the 3 points" I say "OMG the same energy that is acting on the roof is acting on you!" If you are not held in tight you will get your head shoved into your ass as you hit the roof even if it does not fail" BTW you are not held in as tight as you might think in a 6 point. A basic 3 point stock system will let your head hit the roof regardless of the roof failing or not. You are a rag doll in a wreck. You don't "duck down" you get slammed around in a flash of violent body rending force rollover or not. Goggle up some of the racing safety system sled tests and note how low the G forces are. Most are in the 20 to 40 g range. Now get the calulator out and see what your "carefull track driving" exposes you and your wife to. do the math. More often should also mean more systems to maintain the same safety. As I said, you can easly outrun the stock safety systems in all your cars, past, present and I bet, future.

[CanAm]

yes. you can answer this via math. Likelyhood of hitting something? One car a DE weekend is my rule of thumb. (CR, one car per Green flag) Likelyhood of hitting something and rolling over in DE? One a year or so. Likely hood of hitting something, rolling over and crushing the roof at the B pillar in? Very rare in DE but could happen. Keep in mind that a roll bar only protects the B pillar area not the A pillar area which is most often where a roof indents during a roll over. OK, Pen and slide rule aside, unlikely to roll, very unlikey to roll and crush the roof in much, very very unlikley to roll and crush the roof in the B pillar area. Some might think that your efforts and money would be better spent on safety elsewhere. Some people also say "OMFG if you roll and are held up right in your race seat your head will be shoved down into your ass! Don't add seats and better belt systems unless you have a rollbar as it is better to just use the 3 points" I say "OMG the same energy that is acting on the roof is acting on you!" If you are not held in tight you will get your head shoved into your ass as you hit the roof even if it does not fail" BTW you are not held in as tight as you might think in a 6 point. A basic 3 point stock system will let your head hit the roof regardless of the roof failing or not. You are a rag doll in a wreck. You don't "duck down" you get slammed around in a flash of violent body rending force rollover or not. Goggle up some of the racing safety system sled tests and note how low the G forces are. Most are in the 20 to 40 g range. Now get the calulator out and see what your "carefull track driving" exposes you and your wife to. do the math. More often should also mean more systems to maintain the same safety. As said you can easly outrun the stock safety systems in all your cars past present and bet, furture.

Makes sense to me. In about 50 days, I've seen a few dozen impacts, 1 fire, 0 flips. And 0 significant injuries. Heard of 1 flip in a Cayman and the roof didn't crush (and no roll bar, iirc).

What do you think about using a HANS which doesn't require a harness when instructing? Or when driving a car without a harness?

And would you say it's significantly safer not to have a roll bar in a Cayman for street use? Given the mixed street/track use of the car, I'm considering harness bar instead of roll bar.

[Dandelion]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SMMEow7O-FM/T9OD0oNq8KI/AAAAAAAAADE/637DZBGWvjo/s320/scarjo_popcorn.gif

ed

[Hunter]

Ed you nailed that one.

[Trak Ratt]

... What do you think about using a HANS which doesn't require a harness when instructing? Or when driving a car without a harness? ...
I checked with OGracing a few weeks ago and they told me there was no such thing. I also did a search of the web and found none. Maybe next year.

[CanAm]

I checked with OGracing a few weeks ago and they told me there was no such thing. I also did a search of the web and found none. Maybe next year.

:? Seem to be some here?: http://www.ogracing.com/driver/head-and-neck-restraints

[Lupin..the..3rd]

:? Seem to be some here?: http://www.ogracing.com/driver/head-and-neck-restraints
Which of those works without a harness? :?

[Trak Ratt]

:? Seem to be some here?: http://www.ogracing.com/driver/head-and-neck-restraintsThen call them and ask!! Just this once take the lead... :roll:

[Charlie Stylianos]

Then call them and ask!! Just this once take the lead... :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc9LxxGQ1Cs

[CanAm]

Which of those works without a harness? :?

The Simpsons, By harness, I mean 5-pt or 6-pt, not 3-pt.

[Vicegrip]

And we knew what you were trying to say. None of them work without the proper harness system. None. Some people want to think that the R3 works with a 3 point but even the manu will not say it does.

[dhshivers]

Points well taken, but for me it's not only about learning to be a better track driver. Also want to have fun in general, including when driving it on the road - and torque is fun. Kind of doubt it will get to 170 mph (haven't even seen GT2s do that at SP or VIR), but I wouldn't be flat out in the straights with a car like that anyway; would gradually build up speed, over years if needed, as I gained experience with driving and the car. Also, wrt learning, will continue tracking the Cayman, and probably start tracking the C63 also.

At this point, not really leaning towards the TPC turbo car because of the concerns noted by others in this thread, but can't rule it out yet and need to explore further. Cost isn't much more than an S and it only has 12K miles, so need to at least consider it. If I keep it only a couple years and put say 20K more miles on it, maybe less likely it'll blow up and might sell for not too much less than I paid. We'll see.

Find a good 968. Fast, reliable and fun.

[CanAm]

Find a good 968. Fast, reliable and fun.

I do remember one of those passing me on the track once. :lol:

Will put it on the list of 'cars I'd like to drive at some point in my life'.

[ausgeflippt951]

Ever thought about just turbo'ing your Cayman? By far the cheapest route...

[Cliff Claven]

the thought of going 130 mph without proper harnesses and a hans is something i'd feel uncomfortable about. same with letting my wife go unprotected that way. i don't believe standard govt. mandated restraint systems are designed with that sort of speed in mind. sure, there aren't a lot of people getting hurt at DEs, so i guess risk of injury is low. but still the thought of the forces at play when that sort of speed is involved makes me uncomfortable.

[CanAm]

Ever thought about just turbo'ing your Cayman? By far the cheapest route...

Tempting, but the car's holding its value well so far, and don't want to impact that for resale, plus the warranty issue and the high cost of the TPC turbo.


the thought of going 130 mph without proper harnesses and a hans is something i'd feel uncomfortable about. same with letting my wife go unprotected that way. i don't believe standard govt. mandated restraint systems are designed with that sort of speed in mind. sure, there aren't a lot of people getting hurt at DEs, so i guess risk of injury is low. but still the thought of the forces at play when that sort of speed is involved makes me uncomfortable.

I'm increasingly moving towards that view, especially as I'm getting closer to the edge. Injury/death rate does seem low, but 100+ mph is no joke and many track days means more exposure. Once we confirm that we're keeping the Cayman for a while, will likely move forward with proper seats, 6-pts, and HANS, but maybe not a roll bar.

[Dr K]

1) The Cayman that rolled was not moving very fast when it rolled. Not a good example.
2) H&N restraint without proper restraint is just a piece of carbon fiber or fiberglass inserted into the equation to help you break your neck more cleanly
3) Proper roll bar, esp. in a 2-seater car, is far safer, even on the street, than a harness bar
4) Why do you post questions on Dorkiphus? You spend hours justifying your disagreement with every response. Go away. I'm happy to talk with you at the track, but I'm not happy to read your dribble with huge and frequent inaccuracies here on Dorkiphus (but I-can't-help-myself...)


EDIT: cross-posting. Interesting to see you agree with someone in your post above...

[CanAm]

1) The Cayman that rolled was not moving very fast when it rolled. Not a good example.
2) H&N restraint without proper restraint is just a piece of carbon fiber or fiberglass inserted into the equation to help you break your neck more cleanly
3) Proper roll bar, esp. in a 2-seater car, is far safer, even on the street, than a harness bar
4) Why do you post questions on Dorkiphus? You spend hours justifying your disagreement with every response. Go away. I'm happy to talk with you at the track, but I'm not happy to read your dribble with huge and frequent inaccuracies here on Dorkiphus (but I-can't-help-myself...)


EDIT: cross-posting. Interesting to see you agree with someone in your post above...

Have gotten input on the safety stuff for the Cayman from several very knowledgable people in the forum and privately.

On #2, leaning away from getting it, though clearly there are some people who think it helps more than harms. Don't recall seeing any good data on it either way. Besides unknown safety benefit or harm, negatives are the cost and inconvience.

On #4, pretty much every decision I've made fit someone's advice. But when opinions vary, much advice can't be followed - don't take it so personally. Good example is the slow car thing, which you and some others have beat to death. Plenty of people agree with people driving whatever they like, fast or slow, but don't feel the need to say it over and over again in the forum. :roll:

[blipshift]

You've already impacted resale value...I don't know how others feel on the board but if I were in the market for a used Cayman R I would not pay excellent/good private seller book values for your car knowing how much it's been tracked. If you disclose that peice of info, as you should when selling, you're not going to get top dollar and nor should you expect you will. You've beat the crap out of that car and shortened the life on more than just the motor. I'd cozy up to the fact that the car isn't worth what you think it is relative to a car with normal w&t. If anything adding safety gear to the car will increase value for the DE market segment when you do choose to sell.

[CanAm]

You've already impacted resale value...I don't know how others feel on the board but if I were in the market for a used Cayman R I would not pay excellent/good private seller book values for your car knowing how much it's been tracked. If you disclose that peice of info, as you should when selling, you're not going to get top dollar and nor should you expect you will. You've beat the crap out of that car and shortened the life on more than just the motor. I'd cozy up to the fact that the car isn't worth what you think it is relative to a car with normal w&t. If anything adding safety gear to the car will increase value for the DE market segment when you do choose to sell.

Agree that the miles and track use lower the value compared to street only, but not expecting the hit for that to be overly bad, and generally the Cayman R is holding value well because there aren't that many around and it's a desirable car. Will disclose everything when we sell, as we always do. Other than maybe needing an engine rebuild and some other things sooner because of the track use, the car has been well maintained by a good shop and is an excellent shape overall.

[blipshift]

I found this bolt-on roll bar with a quick search...http://www.renntrack.com/forums/showthread.php?2342-New-Cayman-Roll-Bar-Available%21
You can paint it to match interior and should help stiffen up the car, too.

[CanAm]

I found this bolt-on roll bar with a quick search...http://www.renntrack.com/forums/showthread.php?2342-New-Cayman-Roll-Bar-Available%21
You can paint it to match interior and should help stiffen up the car, too.

Thanks for finding that, will consider it if we do the roll bar. At a glance, doesn't the bar look kinda close to the head, particularly for street use?

[blipshift]

Looks like the seat is all the way back and the bar is still behind the seat. I don't see how your head would impact the bar unless you didn't fasten your seatbelt. Edit: If you're really concerned buy a seat with head bolsters, problem solved.

[blipshift]

Also, one more thing you need to consider...you likely wont get around requiring modification when installing the sub-belt. There may be a kit out there, but I've only ever seen them welded to the car.

[Vicegrip]

HBL just took in a 2001 turbo. Sub 50,000 miles, silver with black int, Gt-3 type front bumper cover, added aero in back, GT-3 type seats and Moton remote shocks all around. looked real good during the 1 min walk by looksee I did today.

[cmartin]

HBL just took in a 2001 turbo

Now you're talking. Too bad my dream of a parking lot deal are just that.

[CanAm]

HBL just took in a 2001 turbo. Sub 50,000 miles, silver with black int, Gt-3 type front bumper cover, added aero in back, GT-3 type seats and Moton remote shocks all around. looked real good during the 1 min walk by looksee I did today.

Now you're talking. Too bad my dream of a parking lot deal are just that.

Found this car on cars.com, and there are also a few other 996tts around priced in that ballpark. Being able to convert it to RWD is definitely a game changer.

Questions to 996tt owners (past and present): How do you like it? Pros and cons? Reasonable turbo lag? Any mandatory mods for track use? Special cost items to factor in? Does it seem powerful enough, compared to say a 997.2S?

BTW, hoping to try a 996 GT3 today if weather permits.

[racer]

Given your incredible thirst for data.. and a seemingly equal ability to not come to a decision, I think you will in the end, need a Dedicated track car/trailer combo AND a "street" Porsche with lots of HP as well.

Not sure 996TT owners are cross shopping/comparing against 997.2. This does sound like a great question for the Rennlist/6speed communities though ;)

mmm.. 12 pages!

[CanAm]

Given your incredible thirst for data.. and a seemingly equal ability to not come to a decision, I think you will in the end, need a Dedicated track car/trailer combo AND a "street" Porsche with lots of HP as well.

Not sure 996TT owners are cross shopping/comparing against 997.2. This does sound like a great question for the Rennlist/6speed communities though ;)

mmm.. 12 pages!

You may be right about the two-car solution, but the wife's preferences are also a factor and complicate things (the Cayman is still officially her car).

The indecision is mainly because there are just too many great cars out there, each with it's pros and cons. If I can't decide on a 911, will likely just keeping driving what we have and give it more time. The Cayman will work fine as a track car (and will do safety upgrades), and the C63 can also be tracked (though IMO it's not really built for frequent track use, eg many reports of transmission overheating).

BTW, did drive the 996 GT3 today and liked it. Reminds me of the Cayman R, but somewhat dialed up across all dimensions - response to inputs, feedback to the driver, plantedness, power, etc. Feels small and lighter than the Cayman, even though it's heavier. It's unlike any other 911 I've driven, for example it doesn't have the pitch and roll I'm used to, maybe because it's set up for the track whereas all the other 911s I've driven were basically street cars. Seems to be a very focused car that demands and rewards an equally focused driver. Could be the right car for what I'm seeking, but not sure yet. Will likely get a chance to drive it again (drove it today on R-comps at cold temps, so didn't want to push it too much).

[BlackTalon]

You will never get a true feel of the car driving it on the street. The steering, handiling and braking characteristics near the edge are what will ultimately be the most important.

chances are with a 'stock' 911 -- no matter how new -- or even the Cayman R, the stock suspension will become a hinderance after another 50-100 track days.

[CanAm]

You will never get a true feel of the car driving it on the street. The steering, handiling and braking characteristics near the edge are what will ultimately be the most important.

chances are with a 'stock' 911 -- no matter how new -- or even the Cayman R, the stock suspension will become a hinderance after another 50-100 track days.

Agree, and it's a bit frustrating that I won't truly know what I've got until I track it. Which reminds me, does anyone have contact info for Rob L. who has the red 996 GT3? He did a lot of DEs with it last season, and I'd like to ask him what he though of it on the track. Have talked with a couple other people who've tracked a 996 GT3, and sounds like it's roughly as fast as a 997 GT3, but more challenging to drive, and more fun if that challenge is what someone is looking for. I think I'm up for that challenge, but also I think it would take me quite a few track days to work towards the limits of the car.

Even based on driving the 996 GT3 on the road, that did get me wondering about upgrading the Cayman R's suspension, though leaving it stock probably makes more sense since we may only keep it another year or two.

[Robert in Potomac]

Which reminds me, does anyone have contact info for Rob L. who has the red 996 GT3? He did a lot of DEs with it last season, and I'd like to ask him what he though of it on the track. Have talked with a couple other people who've tracked a 996 GT3, and sounds like it's roughly as fast as a 997 GT3, but more challenging to drive, and more fun if that challenge is what someone is looking for. I think I'm up for that challenge, but also I think it would take me quite a few track days to work towards the limits of the car.



Sent you pm

[ausgeflippt951]

You've already impacted resale value...I don't know how others feel on the board but if I were in the market for a used Cayman R I would not pay excellent/good private seller book values for your car knowing how much it's been tracked. If you disclose that peice of info, as you should when selling, you're not going to get top dollar and nor should you expect you will. You've beat the crap out of that car and shortened the life on more than just the motor. I'd cozy up to the fact that the car isn't worth what you think it is relative to a car with normal w&t. If anything adding safety gear to the car will increase value for the DE market segment when you do choose to sell.

^ THIS. Good point.

Also, one more thing you need to consider...you likely wont get around requiring modification when installing the sub-belt. There may be a kit out there, but I've only ever seen them welded to the car.

Often the sub belt tab is bolted through the floor pan as well. Either works well. Regardless, you're right: can't do it w/o modification.


Irfan, you asked about a 996TT thoughts. SMD has one and, IIRC, has replied in this very thread about what he would do if we were to seriously consider tracking on a regular basis. IIRC, something like page 5?

[Dr K]

[QUOTE=ausgeflippt951;431682]^ THIS. Good point.



Often the sub belt tab is bolted through the floor pan as well. Either works well. Regardless, you're right: can't do it w/o modification./QUOTE]

Brey-Krause makes bars that bolt to the seat mounting points for anchoring sub belts without drilling or welding. I used a copy of one in the Targa without issues, but now have a Piper-mounted welded anchor in the race car.